---

Next Gen Scientists

Dr. Biology: 0:02

This is Ask A Biologist, a program about the living world, and I'm Dr Biology. In today's episode, we get to explore a couple of our next-generation scientists. At least that's what I'm calling them. They're weaving together their science and their passion to communicate science. Kayla Berger is a PhD student in environmental life sciences at ASU and the School of Life Sciences, and she focuses on fisheries management and marine megafauna. There's a word for us to talk about - conservation. Kayla is working on an innovative solution to prevent bycatch. Hmm, what is bycatch? Well, that's the accidental capture of non-targeted species, or what we might say. Let's not catch the animals we're not looking to catch, for example, sea turtles, sharks and rays. She's pioneering the use of net illumination, testing different colors of light and expanding its use for new fishing gear. 

Dr. Biology: 1:07

Our other next-gen scientist is Risa Schnebly, a fourth-year PhD student in the Biology and Society program at ASU, the School of Life Sciences. Risa's interdisciplinary research explores how conservationists understand and emotionally respond to the concept of extinction. Through interviews and creative nonfiction writing, Risa weaves together the history of extinction, personal grief and the emotions of the conservationists. Her goal is to bring a deeper, emotional and meaningful narrative to the science of conservation. Now Risa aspires to a future in science writing, aiming to make scientific research more accessible and impactful through storytelling. Stay tuned as we explore their groundbreaking work and the personal journeys that drive their passion for conservation, as well as their pursuit of the art of telling a good story, a good science story. Let me also add we will be introducing their new podcast that just launched, called SciChronicles. So be sure to stay around, Kayla. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today.

Kayla:  2:26

Of course. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Biology: 2:27

And Risa, thanks so much. You know it's great to have you in the studio. 

Risa:  2:30

Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. 

Dr. Biology: 2:32

All right, I call this the next generation scientist. I'm doing it because scientists they haven't been doing a really good job of storytelling and it's been causing some problems. Right? 

Risa:  2:42

Absolutely. 

Dr. Biology: 2:44

I don't think they're just not tuned into what we do and we have a tendency to use big words, very specific words, which really work well. You know, when we're trying to do things quickly, it makes sense why we use acronyms and we use very specific kinds of words. But when we're talking to the general public it can be a real problem. In this show today we're going to talk a little bit about what you're doing in your research, but also how you're weaving that into the storytelling part that I think is so important. Kayla, I mentioned you're working with some of the sea creatures that people love so much. You know they love sea turtles, right. They may not love the sharks as much, although I think those are misunderstood as far as animals go.

Kayla:  3:31 

Agreed. 

Dr. Biology: 3:32

Yeah, and rays. Rays are just fascinating to watch them as they move through the water, it's almost like just gliding, constantly gliding. So, let's talk a little bit about your research. Tell me about these nets. And well, maybe yet let's talk about what was the big word we had at the very beginning “megafauna”. 

Kayla:  3:52

Megafauna. Yeah, okay, let's talk about that. I'm sure, even if you don't think you're familiar with megafauna, I'm sure you've seen sea turtles, sharks, seabirds are megafauna, basically, any of those big creatures in the ocean dolphins, whales are all megafauna, so a lot of those, unfortunately, though, are endangered. They're threatened by human activities such as fishing, so that's one of the things that I try to work on is saving those creatures from human activities like fishing. 

Dr. Biology: 4:20

Right, and so we're talking about those nets, right?  

Kayla:  4:25

Yeah.

Dr. Biology: 4:26

You put a net out, you don't always catch just what you want to catch, so how do we deal with that?

Kayla:  4:31

Yeah, so I mean nets, depending on the type of net, can be extremely unselective. A lot of them can basically just catch anything that swims into them, so in that case we have to figure out how to make them a little bit more picky as nets. So, one thing that I'm doing is putting lights on nets. These are just mostly green LED lights and we just clip them on there and we don't know exactly how it works, but somehow it's providing some sort of cue for those animals so that they know oh wait, stop, let's not go into that net and instead turn around and avoid capture. 

Dr. Biology: 5:08

Okay, and so that seems to work for the megafauna. So, our sea turtles. I'll pick a sea turtle. Why not the other fish, the ones that we do want to catch? 

Kayla:  5:18

Yeah. So, what we're doing is we're using differences in how the fish see and how the turtles see, and also differences in their behavior. For thousands of years, actually, we've been using light to attract fish. However, it doesn't work the same for some of those bigger creatures. Instead, they kind of see it. We think we're not 100% sure, but we think they kind of see it and go oh, that's something new. We don't know what that is. We should maybe be a little scared of it, and then they can turn around. Or maybe what's happening is the light is illuminating that net. They can see the net finally, where they couldn't see it before, because often they're made out of clear twine and other things that are hard to see in the water. So maybe it's just making it so that they can see the obstacle and then they don't run into it. 

Dr. Biology: 6:03

So, it's kind of a win-win situation here, because the fishermen get to still fish and catch what they want to catch and the animals that we're trying to protect stay protected. 

Kayla:  6:14

Oh, absolutely. That's honestly the biggest reason for using net illumination is because it allows fishers to keep fishing. A lot of the ways that fisheries are managed right now is just by closing them. So, if a fishery is catching, a lot of the ways that fisheries are managed right now is just by closing them. So, if a fishery is catching a lot of sea turtles or sharks when they're not supposed to be, the fishers just don't get to go out. They lose their money that they're trying to make, and so putting that illumination on allows them to still fish, make their money, get a livelihood, while also not having to catch those kind of animals like sea turtles and sharks, which can also be dangerous for them to get out of their nets. 

Dr. Biology: 6:49

Ah, that's true. That's true. So, we talked about animals being endangered, but we also have the end of the line extinction. It's an interesting word, extinction.  

Risa:  7:01

It is. 

Dr. Biology: 7:02 

I think most of us think we know what that means, but can you tell us what extinction means when it comes to these animals? 

Risa:  7:14

Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of part of my motivation in doing what I do is because I think the definition of it is a lot less clear than most of us would like to think. And I think that's been true since the word became accepted in terms of biological extinction, which was not until just a few centuries ago really, and it just kind of became understood as you know, when a species disappears. 

Risa:  7:34

But, unlike you know the species concept and the philosophy of science people have debated about what a definition of a species is. That hasn't really happened with extinction. The definition of extinction has always hinged on whatever we decide a species is, but we don't really question what disappearing means or how we even quantify and know that there's no more members of a species left. And I think that people are starting to talk about it a little bit more because of these novel de-extinction technologies, which are the technologies and projects of people trying to essentially quote unquote bring back these species that have gone extinct, like the woolly mammoth or the Tasmanian tiger, the Dodo bird. There's scientists trying to recreate these species using genetic engineering technology, which is basically messing with the DNA of different species to make lookalikes. 

Dr. Biology: 8:24

Wow, I'll tell you. You know Jurassic Park coming to life and it didn't turn out well there. 

Risa:  8:29

No, it didn't turn out so well there. That's what most people think of, I think, when they hear about de-extinction. But these scientists are really arguing for having really sound science doing really cautious testing and they believe that they'll have real ecological benefits with their projects. I personally am kind of on the fence about how I feel about de-extinction, but I think it's interesting for how it complicates the idea of what species loss means and extinction might not be forever. 

Dr. Biology: 8:58

Right, you also deal with the emotional side that scientists actually encounter. I know of a graduate student years ago who had to extend her PhD work because the species she was actually working on went extinct. The sadness there is you get to start all over. That's pretty devastating. You deal with what is called eco-grief. 

Risa:  9:25

Right.  

Dr. Biology: 9:26

Can you tell us a little bit about eco-grief.  

Risa:  9:27

Yeah, it's pretty much exactly as it sounds. It's grief extended towards ecological losses and devastation in the natural world. But that as a concept is really unfamiliar to most people because especially, you know, in the global north, we're not really connected to our landscapes or other species that we're living with here and we don't necessarily see them as beings that are worthy of our grief A lot of the time. That's not for everyone. 

Dr. Biology: 9:52

Right. So, we have an urban environment, we have lots of homes that are in the suburbs, we have big cities that are growing and we pretty much wall out a lot of the species plant and animal from where we're living and so we're separated from them. So, under those conditions it's not as obvious when you lose them. 

Risa:  10:19

Yeah, it's not as obvious. I mean, half the time most of us don't even know what species are out there. Right, there's that statistic of like people can recognize 10 logos but they can't like name 10 native plants of their area. So, a lot of the time we don't even have the knowledge to recognize the species around us that we're losing. And even if someone did tell us about it, it's not a part of at least American culture to really value them as beings with lives and let alone grieve for them and grieve for their loss. And I think that's the norm for a lot of people. 

Risa:  10:51

But there are the people who are connected to species loss and witnessing species loss, which there are many people, local communities, especially indigenous people. But I think one area of people that are feeling this eco grief is the conservationists who have been working with these species and watching their populations decline and watching them either get close to going extinct or actually go extinct. And so, I'm interested in that kind of story. Extinction is this hazy, gray concept that we have. But it still is emblematic of some sort of real loss that is happening. And why should that loss matter? And I think the emotions that people do have the people who are connected to these species what they're feeling when they watch these losses happen. I think that tells us why it matters. 

Dr. Biology: 11:35

It's interesting you say that, because I do think people understand loss, especially of animals. They just don't think about the species. So, for example, when you have your family, the family usually includes some kind of pet. If anyone has lost a pet, they know what grief is, they know the sadness in that. 

Dr. Biology: 12:02

Yeah, so if you can just imagine having that many pets or the animals that you really care about, and seeing less and less and less of them when you keep working hard to not have less of them, to actually maybe have them grow in numbers, you can start to get an idea of where this grief comes from and how profound it could be.  

Risa:  12:22

Absolutely  

Dr. Biology: 12:23

Let me ask you have you come across a conservationist that has given up? 

Risa:  12:30

Not yet. I haven't actually been talking to that many conservationists yet. That's the next step in my project. 

Dr. Biology: 12:35

Oh, okay, ooh we get to have you come back to the show, Kayla. Let's go back to our sea turtles. My grandson loves Nemo, oh my heavens. And in Finding Nemo we have the coolest, coolest sea turtles  

Kayla:  12:53

Crush.  

Dr. Biology: 12:54

Yes, yes, see, yeah. And while, I'm not always wild about some of the things that Hollywood does. They get a lot of things wrong. I do like the fact that they get kids at a very young age thinking about sea animals. 

Kayla:  13:15

Oh, absolutely. 

Dr. Biology: 13:17 

When did you start thinking about sea turtles and sharks and rays? 

Kayla:  13:24

From a very young age, so I can't even remember how young I was, but my family took me to the beach and I think that was kind of the first introduction into the ocean. And then I remember in fourth grade my uncle got me a book all about the oceans and I sat down for hours and hours out of multiple weeks and rewrote that book into my own nonfiction book about the oceans. So, I have always had that love of the oceans. Then, when I was in high school, I took a marine biology class and that's when I really fell in love with sea turtles. I'll never forget my instructor. 

Kayla:  14:00

He pulled up a picture of a sea turtle on the board and showed us their throats and I don't know if anyone's ever seen the throat of a sea turtle before, specifically a leatherback sea turtle, but they are just covered in these long spines and it's to help them swallow jellyfish and keep the jellyfish from swimming back up. 

Kayla:  14:20

But I saw that picture and I thought, wow, that is so cool that you know those turtles are so specialized and have evolved that crazy mechanism to help them survive in the wild and I was so impressed by them from that moment. And so, I think that really started my love for sea turtles and then it just took off from there. Got to go on a study abroad in my undergrad and meet my first sea turtle in person, and that was just the solidifying moment for me was seeing a sea turtle in real life, hearing it breathe. It just has this cavernous, huge breath to it that you can feel and that was the moment that sold me. I knew I was going to be researching and trying to save these creatures for my life. 

Dr. Biology: 15:01

Very good, actually, ask a Biologist. We have virtual biomes. You can go into 360 biomes and I was the one that did the marine biome and I have green sea turtles that I got to swim with, which was just an amazing experience and they were so gentle and so super cool actually, right, so if anybody's listening to this and you want to go explore, go check out our virtual biomes, you can. That's all you have to do is type virtual biomes in the search engine and you'll find us. We’ll be number one. 

Kayla:  15:35

Where'd you get to swim with sea turtles? 

Dr. Biology: 15:38

It was in the Bahamas ah, amazing, yes, yes and actually which they have? Turtle grass. 

Risa:  15:45

Oh yeah. 

Dr. Biology: 15:45

And they were actually down on the ocean floor. They were eating turtle grass. 

Kayla:  15:49

Oh, how fun yeah. 

Dr. Biology: 15:50

So, they were chomping down, so they're having a great time. Risa, we know when Kayla got excited about working with her turtles. You have a passion that's not necessarily an animal, but you have a passion for storytelling and writing, and you also have a passion in the realm of science. Has it always been that you have those two entwined, or is it something that evolved over time? 

Risa:  16:21

I think it's evolved over time. I think when I was younger, I have always loved writing. I, yeah, dreamed of being a writer when I was a kid and into high school. But no one tells you to be an English major because you won't make any money. So, I also liked science, specifically ecology, and I've always loved being out in nature and being with the natural world. I thought I would be a conservationist myself for a long time. 

Risa:  16:45

As I got into the program I'm in now Biology and Society I thought it was perfect for me. Because I was like okay, great my frustration with science is that it has always felt so enclosed, right, like it feels like scientists are doing science for themselves and for the project of science, but not necessarily for people. And I think, as I've gone further into grad school, I never thought I would be in grad school. Writing has become a way for me to feel like I can take science out into the real world and not just communicating it without jargon and all these big words, but also communicating stories that are compelling and emotional, that I think people can relate to, makes science for everyone.  

Dr. Biology: 17:25

Right, and I actually think the scientists are very passionate about what they do, think the scientists are very passionate about what they do and they often are thinking about society, but they're just so focused on the work that they lose the focus of storytelling. 

And a lot of the scientists I know are musicians, they're painters, they are writers, and I always say that science and art are kindred spirits, they're not separate. We say you design an experiment. We say that for a reason. I also say that if you are not a creative person, you won't be successful in art and you won't be successful in science. So, yeah, I agree. 

Risa:  18:15

I think that's right and I don't think it's the fault of the scientists themselves. I think a lot of scientists have this creative drive, but I don't think institutionally, like science within universities is necessarily incentivizing people or even giving them the space to explore and do their science in ways that can reach other people. 

Dr. Biology: 18:35

Right right, your publication records are based on publishing in journals. Journals have, over the years, become more and more specialized. If you go back to read Darwin's works and contemporaries of that time, what's very interesting is that they were really good storytellers. Let me ask you two. You both have this passion for science and a passion for storytelling, and you took this and ran with it, using a format that some people might be familiar with, called a story slam. So, let's first talk about the evolution, or the genesis, of the School of Life Sciences story slam.  

Kayla:  19:14

Yeah, this has been an amazing passion project of mine that I've gotten to work on, and I'm so grateful that I've gotten the opportunity to do so. And it all started when a couple of colleagues went to a conference in Washington DC called AAAS or the American Association for the Advancement of Science. So, we went to their meeting in DC, and they held their own story slam. So, we got to go watch a variety of scientists from all different disciplines, all different walks of life, all different stages of their careers even tell stories about their science, about their journeys in science, how they got to be where they are. And it was so inspiring to hear these stories from these scientists and hear about some of the struggles that they went through and how their pathways are not always straightforward. 

Kayla:  20:09

And as someone who is, you know, kind of just starting out on my scientific pathway you know, a PhD to me is just kind of the beginning it was amazing to hear these people share these stories and it gave me hope that I could become a great scientist. So, seeing that we wanted to bring those feelings and that inspiration and that connection back to ASU and back to the School of Life Sciences, and so we did. It took us a while, but we worked with organizations like the Story Collider, which is great. I recommend checking them out. They also have a podcast to bring this event to ASU, and we had an amazing group of graduate students and faculty members that joined us and were vulnerable and shared their stories on stage and hopefully inspired a bunch of other scientists here at our own university. 

Dr. Biology: 21:00

Right, and when I became aware of it, it was Kayla and Risa you two were the ones that were working on this. Risa, how did you get into this? 

Risa:  21:06

Yeah, I didn't go to this conference, but Kayla and our other collaborator, Baylee, is the last one, Baylee Edwards,  

Kayla:  21:12

Yeah we have to shout Baylee out, because Baylee has also been instrumental in creating this story slam as well. 

Dr Biology and Risa:  21:20

Oh, all right, okay, yeah, all right, Baylee yeah. 

Risa:  21:31

So, the two of them had gone to the triple as conference and when they came back with this idea I mean they both know that I'm always trying to do science storytelling stuff so they asked me to join and help out and I, of course, jumped on that, because this is everything I love to do and it was such a rewarding process. A lot of it was us working with our grad student storytellers, helping them make outlines and then write drafts and revise and practice, and, yeah, we gave them a lot of hands-on feedback and it just was so fulfilling to see everyone being so vulnerable with each other and being willing to help each other and creating that safe space for everyone to share a piece of their lives and then do it in front of everyone. 

Dr. Biology: 22:02

Right, and I was fortunate to attend the first Story Slam and I was just amazed. It's the other part of doing science. Ask a biologist. We get a lot of questions that come to us. You can imagine that most of them are about science, but it turns out there are at least 25% to 30% of all the questions we get have nothing to do with science. It's all about the person. What is it like to be a scientist? How do I become you? You know what is it like to be you? Those sort of things. This was a way of doing it. So, as a podcaster, longtime podcaster I wanted to be sure as many people could hear these stories as possible. Which of you would want to talk about what’s on the horizon? 

Risa:  22:51

Yeah, yeah, we're so excited. Well, thanks to you, Dr Biology, helping us get started creating the SciChronicles podcast, where we're having our storytellers record their storytellers to put them up online for anybody to listen to or re-listen to. And yeah, Kayla and I will be the hosts of that podcast and hopefully be able to recruit more storytellers in the future to both participate in our live events but also have their stories recorded for people to hear for a long time. 

Dr. Biology: 23:18

For me. I think of it as an audience of those who think they might want to go to grad school but aren't sure. Those that are in grad school and thinking what have I done? So those are the kinds of things that are really compelling, and I'm just excited to announce that, after you listen to this show, you will have links in this podcast so you can go to SciChronicles and listen to the first episode, which I think is going to be really fantastic. 

Kayla:  23:48

Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited for this podcast to be available to everyone so that anyone of all ages can go learn about what it's like to be a scientist and what it takes along the journey to be a scientist, and we're so excited to inspire other people as well.  

Risa:  24:02

And also, just showing that it is not a straightforward path, which is my favorite part of these stories, and that everyone who's doing science and these people because it's not just grad students right stories and that everyone who's doing science and these people because it's not just grad students right. We have grad students at different stages, as well as faculty, at different levels of their career, and you might look at them and see what you think from the outside as a traditional group of scientists, but once you start hearing them talk, it's just so clear that everyone is so unique and has so much to say and has lived through so much and are doing science for entirely different reasons. 

Dr. Biology: 24:37

Absolutely All right, Kayla. So, we have storytelling and we have fisheries. I guess we could say it's a fishtail. [laughter] So, tell me a little bit about the link between those. 

Kayla:  25:10

Yeah. So, most people probably wouldn't think that storytelling and fisheries are related. But the truth is, you know, I'm trying to save these species, like sea turtles, but doing that through fishers, and I have to be able to work with the fishers, and the fishers have to be able to believe in our mission as well. And so, storytelling comes into play there when we are trying to, I guess, kind of convince these fishers to work for us or get them to see our perspective of things. And being able to communicate our passion and the reasons behind what we're doing is so important for them to connect with us. 

Kayla:  25:43

Because a lot of times the fishers are coming at it from a perspective of oh, those scientists are trying to shut us down, scientists are bad, they don't want us to fish. But that's not the case. The entire reason I love working in fisheries is because, you know, I love seafood. I want fishers to keep fishing, so I want to work with them, and to do that I have to be able to use these storytelling capabilities to explain to them what I'm doing and what my passions are and kind of get them on my side a little bit. And it really helps if you come at it from a storytelling point of view. 

Dr. Biology: 26:14

Right, just facts, data. They don't spring off the pages and they don't actually engage a lot of people other than other scientists. [Kayla Yep], Good point, all right. There are three questions I ask all my scientists on this podcast, and so I'm going to start with Risa, because, Kayla, you actually kind of answered the very first question and I might ask you if you want to add anything to it. The first question is when did you first know you wanted to be a scientist?

Risa:  26:25

I still don't know.  [laughter]  

Dr. Biology:  26:29

You still don't know. I still don't know. 

Dr. Biology: 26:30

So, do you think you're a scientist? 

Risa:  26:32 

I don't know. I got that imposter syndrome. You know I'm not sure I don't do hard science or lab work, so it feels difficult to call myself a scientist a lot of the time. But I'm trying to own it more. 

Dr. Biology: 26:45

All right, Kayla. All right, Kayla, let's pick up on your turtles. 

Kayla:  26:47

Yeah, so I think I mentioned that I have been really interested in turtles in the ocean since I was young. But I also just want to add that for me it wasn't a straightforward path. I've always been interested in science, but I didn't know that I wanted to be a scientist for sure until really when I was in college, and there was a lot of questioning going into that. But once I figured out my true passion, I think it ended up being my passions that drove me to where I am now. 

Dr. Biology: 27:14

All right. Well, now I get to be a little bit on the evil side. Here's where I take it all away. This is where I want you to stretch, and obviously I'm not really taking it away. It's just. It's a thought question. So, you can't do your science. I'm going to actually have to take away your storytelling and writing for both of you. If you couldn't do any of those things, what would you do, or what would you be? 

Kayla:  27:41

That's kind of an easy one for me. So, I've always had the backup plan of going and being a dive master, so scuba diving and teaching other people how to dive, and that way I can still see the ocean and hang out with the creatures that I love, but maybe in a different way than being a scientist. And you know, when I was young I did kind of imagine that scientists would just be scuba diving all the time, and that's not what I do, but I'm glad that I still get to do that in my free time. But that's definitely my if I ever get tired of science maybe I'll just go do that. 

Dr. Biology: 28:11

Okay, Sounds like a great, great gig. Risa, how about you? 

Risa:  28:18

I don't know. I think I'd love to be working with kids outdoors maybe some sort of wilderness instructor or, you know, even just a guide, you know, taking high schoolers outside and hiking and paddleboarding and showing them local plants. 

Dr. Biology: 28:30

Yeah, yeah, it can be really rewarding. Just a lot of these kids have never experienced it. 

Risa:  28:36 

Absolutely yeah, and I think I mean getting kids into nature is going to save the world. 

Dr. Biology: 28:41

Ah, yeah. So, the last question what advice would you have for a young scientist maybe even younger than you guys, because you're not that old in your career, but they always wanted to be a scientist, or maybe they weren't quite sure they wanted to be a scientist. And since we're talking younger, let's go to middle school and high school. What advice do you have, Risa? 

Risa:  29:08

Yeah, just that science doesn't always have to look like what you think it does, that you can incorporate your passions and your creativity into your science, that they actually help each other rather than work against each other. And even if something like math doesn't come easy to you, that doesn't mean you can't be a scientist. 

Dr. Biology: 29:29

Speaking of becoming a scientist and your interest in how grief impacts conservation science, you have experience with grief. You lost your mother at a young age. How did that change your course in life? 

Risa:  29:46

Yeah, I mean, it changed absolutely everything for me. I was 19. My mom was my whole support system. I didn't really have any other family and so when she got cancer I dropped out of school. I moved to Mexico, where she's from, and I lived there for a while until after she died, and then I eventually came over to Arizona because I have an aunt that lives here and then started school here, which is the whole reason I am where I am today.  I found the biology and society program. 

Risa:  30:10

I found a science writing course; the embryo project encyclopedia (Shout out to Jane Maienschein) and that's really what convinced me to pursue grad school. 

Risa:  30:35

But then, as I got into studying de-extinction and these novel conservation technologies and I was interested in them and I was interested in them in this philosophical definition kind of way, which I still am interested, but I couldn't help but be drawn to this way of studying and thinking about loss and grief, because it's been yeah, just I mean, I'm still grieving. It's been almost seven years now. I'm, yeah, I'm still consumed by grief, so much at the time and I think people don't - I don't even understand grief half the time and I think it's such a transformative experience and it's something that a lot of people stray away from and run away from, but I think it's a really powerful thing. And to think about what it would be like to actually grieve you know all the many things worth grieving in our world right now. It yeah, I don't know. I'm motivated to think about what that would look like because I have been so transformed by grief myself. Right, so using grief in a positive way. 

Risa:  31:05

Yeah, I mean recognizing that it's the hardest thing you'll ever go through.  I'm completely a different person and I think in a lot of ways for the better. I live my life a lot more in the present and I think a lot more about what's important to me because of that experience. And so, yeah, I think if we took that and thought about it in the context of ecology and the world, I don't know I think it could be a transformative thing. 

Dr. Biology: 31:37

Right For a lot of us and if someone wants to get a taste of the embryo project, we actually have Embryo Tales. 

Risa:  31:45

Yes, we do. 

Dr. Biology: 31:47

On Ask A Biologist, which is a great way to get introduced to the embryo project. 

Risa:  31:51

Yep, they're great. I've been working on those for years. 

Dr. Biology: 31:58

Yeah, I know, ask, a biologist is everywhere. Yeah, yeah, all right, Kayla, what's your advice? 

Kayla:  32:04

My journey, there was a lot of questioning. I knew I loved science, but there was a lot of questioning of, well, what type of science and what exactly do I like? And for that I would just recommend just going out there and getting experience in different things, saying yes to opportunities. If you have the chance to maybe join a club that has to do with science, do it. Just see if you like it. Even if it's not exactly what you want to do, it might help you narrow down what kinds of science you like. So yeah, my advice is just to get out there and try stuff. 

Dr. Biology: 32:33

Yeah, I agree those clubs can be really powerful. Well, Kayla, thank you so much for sitting down on. Ask a Biologist. 

Kayla:  33:01

Yeah, thank you so much. I've really had a great time on this podcast. 

Dr. Biology: 32:45

Risa, thank you so much. Thank you. It's great to have both of you here, and we'll be making sure that people know about SciChronicles. [Risa  - Woo], and it's the other part. It's the other part of science. It's actually the part of science that makes science so much fun. 

Kayla:  33:01

Absolutely. 

Dr. Biology: 33:03

You have been listening to Ask A  Biologist, and my guests have been Kayla Berger and Risa Schneble. As we do with all our episodes, we'll include links to learn more about their work and also their new podcast, SciChronicles, a podcast that explores the personal stories of scientists and how their experiences have shaped their work and how and why they became a scientist. 

The Ask A Biologist podcast is produced on the campus of Arizona State University and is recorded in the Grassroots Studio housed in the School of Life Sciences, which is an academic unit of The College of Liberal Arts and Sciences. Also, a quick reminder if you have not subscribed to this podcast, please take a moment and do that so you don't miss any of the future episodes. 

And remember, even though our program is not broadcast live, you can still send us your questions about biology using our companion website. The address is askabiologistasuedu, or you can just use your favorite search tool and enter the words “ask a biologist”. As always, I'm Dr Biology and I hope you're staying safe and healthy.